Oh I get it now. You know as well as anyone that Ukraine even all the best technology from the west just isn't match for Russia. It looks like the west half assed their support. I bet you, it they deployed NATO forces and American generals there, Ukraine wouldn't be getting smoked like this but then again, there's the nuclear threat from Russia, and I get why the U.S specially isn't officially getting in the war, but still, they could've supported them better. I bet the Jew Zelinski regrets listening to them now.
Average age of the Ukrainian army is 54 years old
- Thread starter Gaandheri
- Start date
GaradShabeel
VIP
What could Zelensky do any different? Russia's invasion would've happened anyways. They had already planned it prior to his presidency. It started way back with their support of the separatists in 2014, as well as annexation of Crimea, after the maidan revolution.
I haven't been paying attention to this war, but from what I understand, Russia basically wanted to take back disputed land that was officially recognized as Ukraine at the time? Those areas are also ethnically Russian majority right? so what if Zelinsky just handed it back, do you think Russia would still invade?
Hotchick12
VIP
Lol it all started when the couped the democratically elected government that was pro Russia and then filled the government with pro eu and who wanted to join nato
GaradShabeel
VIP
To give a brief summary, it was never a question of dispute. When the Soviet Union collapsed and referendum was held in Ukraine, all regions voted to become part of the new independent country with a 80%+ in favor, with the exception of Crimea of a slim majority. To give context, the south and east are predominantly ethnic Russians and native Russian-speaking ethnic Ukrainians, while the north and west are ethnic Ukrainians. Though, Kiev has always been a Russophone city.
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In any case, every election has been split between pro-Russia/Russophone v. pro-Ukrainian nationalism/pro-west candidates. And over the years, they've had a massive protests. In particular around the time of elections, against oligarchy, corruption, electoral irregularities, abuse of power etc. The first revolution occurred in 2005 (Orange), and the second in 2013 (Maidan) was different. The latter was caused by president Yanukovych declining to sign a major trade deal with EU to instead be closer to Russia. Which Putin/Yanukovych blame on US/west through 'meddling and instigating' to make Ukrainians turn on Russia.
The protests turned violent, Yanukovych was then impeached by parliament which he deemed unlawful. The new gov't issued warrant for his arrest, he fled to Russia and requested help from Putin who called his ousting as a 'western backed coup'. This lead to counter-protests by the Russian speaking Ukrainians. Russia already had military troops in Crimea through previous agreements, but they decided to annex it. Pro-Russian separatist, with Russian help, decided to also take over Luhansk and Donetsk and declared to be independent. This triggered war with Ukrainian army and they have been fighting ever since. Ukrainian gov't then aspired to join EU and NATO to counter Russia, which Putin opposed.
Several attempts have been made to end the war. The Minsk agreement (2015) reduced the fightings. A draft of solution was made for Ukrainian gov't to give these regions a generous autonomy and self-rule. But they refused on the ground that it would give space for Russia to indirectly control/influence them and were not on board with treating them different from other Ukrainian regions. The stalemate went on until Russia basically invaded them in 2021.
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None of this would have happened if NATO agreed to what they said in the late 80’s with Gorbachev and stopped expanding. The west can’t support Ukraine any longer a war right now in the Middle East and one soon in Taiwan would be disastrous. Minsk agreement was a lie too EU leaders have admitted that it was for Ukraine to build up its military.
Ukraine is red line for Russia as it is a flat land not mountains it’s where hitler invaded through, the west wants to destroy Russia then Balkanize it.
GaradShabeel
VIP
It's up to each country to decide whether they want to join NATO or not. And if they make that request, then NATO will accept it.
But it's true that Ukraine was Russia's red-line. But given the fact that Russia annexed Crimea and Donbass was occupied by separatists, Ukraine would never have been able to join NATO or even EU, to due to the disputed territories. Russia also promised to never cede control of Crimea, but would negotiate with regards to Donbass.
Based on these premisses, western/NATO leaders were open that Ukraine would not become part the alliance. I don't even know why people still bring it up. The moment Putin took over Crimea, his excuses of NATO became irrelevant. Despite this, Putin went along with his war mongering about NATO that people still believe.
Nilotic
VIP
The West is doing as much as they can for Ukraine; in addition to the $100 billion + military assistance they've provided to Ukraine, they very likely have special forces on the ground...
..Officials in the West knew (as far back as 2008) that Russia would respond with Nation-destroying force if Ukraine was offered NATO membership -- and they went ahead and did it anyway.
You don’t gain anything from it really other than top military equipment you basically become a client state of the US like what happened to Germany they know the US blew up Nord stream 2 but they can’t do shit about it.
Peter the great always told every Russian leader to come after him expand towards the Baltic and Black Sea. Crimea allows Russia to dominate the Black Sea along with them controlling Latakia and Tartus they have a chokehold on the Black Sea. Turks wanted to build a canal in the Bosporus Russians stopped it.
Nah Ukraine wouldn’t implement the Minsk agreements and they kept wanting to join NATO with even them wanting to apply before the invasion. It’s only Viktor Orban who doesn’t want Ukraine in the EU and NATO every other EU leader wants Ukraine in NATO.
GaradShabeel
VIP
Russian 'fear' is what attracted east/central European countries towards NATO after being Soviet/Soviet-adjacent states for so long that they hated. I don't think they care about getting anything meaningful from the alliance other than safety assurances (and being a vassal state as a result. But it aligns with their already pro-west stance).
They were not wrong about either; look at Georgia. Russian occupied separatists control 20%+ of the country. But also, let's be real; what capabilities does a country like Estonia have? They have a population of 1.3 million kkkk. If Russia wanted their land, he could take it in a few hours.
It doesn't matter whether Ukraine still wanted to join or not. One of the basic conditions for joining NATO is that you can't have territory that's occupied or disputed. Since Russia took over Crimea and indirectly Donbass as well, it made Ukraine per default ineligible. Most NATO leaders were open about this fact. Otherwise they would've proceeded with a Ukrainian application long time ago, which did not happen.
Also, when the pro-Russian (lol) president/government talked about interest in NATO back in 2008, Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy blocked their efforts and turned them down.
Moreover, people tend to miss that Putin was also against Ukraine becoming part of EU, an economic bloc, which speaks loud and clear about his intentions. All because he wanted Ukraine to remain in his sphere of influence.
If that's the case, then they are losing badly, and it is super strange that they didn't have a plan B. I have no dog in this fight but I can't help but admire Russia for humbling the west.
So basically Russia is doing what we would want to do in Galbeed?
I had no idea ethnic Russians were that numerous in Ukraine, outside the usual/known place like the ones you mentioned.
Go ahaydh adeer Putin, get yours back.
GaradShabeel
VIP
So basically Russia is doing what we would want to do in Galbeed?
I had no idea ethnic Russians were that numerous in Ukraine, outside the usual/known place like the ones you mentioned.
Go ahaydh adeer Putin, get yours back.
Ethnic Russians aren't as numerous as they seem. The statistics also includes native Russian-speaking Ukrainians. During the Soviet Union and its predecessor, Russian Empire, lots of Ukrainians underwent russification. Even though they are ethnic Ukrainians, many of them have (or had) a Russian identity. Just like Arabized people who aren't ethnically Arab.
With that said, despite many of these Russian-identifying people of Ukraine who were pro-Russian federation prior to the war; after Putin launched the war, their support of Russia were drastically reduced.
Today, only regions with ethnic majority still favor Russia; Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk. The rest of the Russophone regions (non-ethnic Russian, but native-Russian speakers) has lost significant support for Putin and many of them are fighting against him, such as Odessa, Mykolaiv, Charkiv, Cherson, Zaparozhizha, Dnipro etc.
Zelensky is a non-Russian ethnic, native-speaking Russian. People like him have started becoming more Ukrainian nationalist now. I would therefore not compare with Galbeed.
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Thanks for the low down man!
The only reason why I brought up Galbeed is because anytime I see these next door neighbor conflicts, Russia/Ukraine, Israel/Palestine, Armenia/Azerbeijan etc.., my mind immediately goes to our land that's currently occupied by Ethiopia, and how it sucks being the weaker one in these conflicts. Literally, the losers of these conflicts are getting fucked up badly!
GaradShabeel
VIP
But you still made a point about Galbeed. However, it can only be applied to a few of the regions in Ukraine. And they were largely already controlled by Russia and their affiliated entities before the war; entire Crimea and half-ish of Donetsk and Luhansk.
I still concur that you feel somewhat solidarity with the plight of these people and how their government doesn't take their concern seriously. Ultimately, regardless whether it's 'right' or 'wrong'; in the end, it's all about might. And Russia seems to the winner.
I think your last line is the damn truth! I am almost embarrassed to admit that it's taken me until 2023 to realize that might is right. Also while Russia was after its land mostly, I think they used it as an excuse to put an end to the Ukraine NATO idea before it festered. That's how you deal with potential threats before it becomes a serious problem. I can only imagine how fucked Russia would be if NATO and the west set camp on its borders.
Also, with Somali Galbeed, it isn't even liberation for me anymore.
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