Ajuuraan empire

Discussion in 'Culture & History' started by land owner, Nov 28, 2019.

  1. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    Wrong.

    Hiraab Imamate did rule the Benadir region, Hiraan region, central Shabelle region, Galgaduud region and Mudug region.

    Wikipedia definitely got that right.

    The only person who is confused here is you because you have stated Hobyo was the capital when all your sources state it was the commercial center. It's pretty clear, I do not know why it's hard for you to understand that Shangaani is a neighbourhood of Mogadishu and commercial capital does not necessarily mean it's the political capital of the state. Otherwise, it would have just said "capital" instead of "commercial capital".

    My point still stands. The Yaquubi dynasty that ruled Hiraab Imamate lived in Mogadishu, thus making it the political capital of the state.
     
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  2. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    :russ:I can see it now: two ruling dynasties in one town the size of Shingaani in the 17th century. :drakelaugh:
     
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  3. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    There was only one dynasty that governed all of Hiraab Imamate and the Yaquub Abgaal lived in Mogadishu.

    If this is how you think then we cannot progress this discussion any further.
     
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  4. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    I guess not. You did'nt even bother to read about Maxamed and his brother Maxamuud, did you?
    :snoop:
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
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  5. towerheist

    towerheist

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    What is this xaar @Grant there never was two Imamates. Imam Maxamed and Imam Maxamuud had war over the Imamship and different Abgaal Subclans supported different Imams. It was a lengthy and brutal war wich imam Maxamed won and continued his rule from Shangaani just like his father and grandfather.
     
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  6. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    I didn't bother responding to him on that point because he was obviously being childish. He clearly knew nothing about the civil war.

    The way he says it acts like there were two dynasties ruling the Imamate when it was just a power dispute between two brothers that wanted the throne. Every kingdom went through that phrase.
     
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  7. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    :snoop:

    If you don't like my links, come up with some of your own. You understand "cadet" and "main line"? Maxamed's kids were already half Yemeni. Notice that the 11th Imaam of Hiraab is the son of Maxamuud and not Maxamed!


    https://xaqdoon.wordpress.com/2009/08/29/yaquub-sultanate/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiraab_Imamate

    Ruler Name Reign Note
    1 Imaam Yacquub Ciqwaaq Founder of the Hiraab Imamate and first Imam, eponymous ancestor of the Yacquubi dynasty
    2 Imaam Xasan Imaam Yacquub
    3 Imaam Maxamed Imaam Xasan
    4 Imaam Maxamuud Imaam Xasan
    5 Imaam Diimaale Imaam Xasan
    6 Imaam Hilowle Imaam Diimaale
    7 Imaam Maxamuud Imaam Hilowle
    8 Imaam Cumar Imaam Maxamuud fl.1620 During his Imaamate, Hiraab conquered Mogadishu and displaced the Muzaffar Dynasty.[3]
    9 Imaam Maxamed Imaam Cumar His descendants would form a cadet Imaamate based in Shingani district of Mogadishu
    10 Imaam Maxamuud Imaam Maxamed Brother of Imaam Maxamed, his descendants continue the main line of the Imaamate

    11 Imaam Axmed Imaam Maxamuud
    12 Imaam Maxamed Imaam Axmed
    13 Imaam Maxamuud Imaam Maxamed
    14 Imaam Cabdiraxmaan Imaam Maxamuud
    15 Imaam Caamir Imaam Cabdiraxmaan
    16 Imaam Cumar Cali Imaam Caamir 19??-1986 Grandson of Imaam Caamir
    17 Imaam Maxamuud Imaam Cumar 1986-2011 Son of Imaam Cumar, played a key role in peacemaking efforts between rival Hawiye factions in the Somali civil war.[4]
    18 Imaam Maxamed Yuusuf Cali 2011–present Cousin of Imaam Maxamuud Imaam Cumar and nephew of Imaam Cumar Cali, he is the current Imaam of Mudulood and all Hiraab


    Falsy can't read and didn't reply because he had no leg to stand on.

    :snoop::snoop::snoop:
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
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  8. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    Half Yemeni? Do you have proof? You're known to lie a lot.

    Besides, the Imamate was based in Shingaani, Mogadishu meaning the place they were based in was their political capital. All you have done is proved my point and it does not prove there were two dynasties ruling the Imamate but one dynasty after Imam Maxamed won the battle of the thrones against his brother Imaam Maxamuud. I don't understand how it's that difficult for you to understand?

    You really suck at history because all you're doing is confusing things and lying at the same time. You're just embarrassing yourself. Just stop it.
     
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  9. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    Still can't read, can you?

    The Yaquub Abgal in Shingani and the Mudulood Hiraab were two separate dynasties at least through the 17th century. The 11th Imaam of Hiraab was the son of Maxamuud, not Maxamed. He was in the main line, not the cadet line in Shingaani, which was of minor importance in the 17th century compared to Hobyo.

    Perhaps some remedial reading lessons would be helpful before you try this for the third time in this thread:

    https://xaqdoon.wordpress.com/2009/08/29/yaquub-sultanate/

    By about 1700 the entire political structure of Mogadishu city was altered with the ascendancy of a new line of Abgaal Yaaquub imams who established themselves in Shangaani quarter (the northern moiety of Mogadishu city). The Yaaquub imam’s powerbase remained among the people of the interior, while members of the Imam’s Yaaquub lineage intermarried with the BaFadel and Abdi Semen, two famed merchants families of Yemeni origins.

    The old Mudulood/ Hiraab line continued under Maxamuud's descendants.

    According to Cassanelli, The Shaping of Somali Society, pp 73-74, The Abgaal shared control of Mog with the "traditional leading families while continuing to exercise titular leadership over their rural Abgaal kinsmen." The remainder of Mudulood and Hiraab are not mentioned. Cassanelli goes on to say that by the late 19th century, the Abgaal had to share Mog with two other Hawiyya clans with sizeable numbers in the immediate area, with each having a separate market, abaans and qadis. Hiraab was far from monolithic or in control of the whole thing.


    Maxamed's line was half Yemeni in the next generation. They only ruled other Abgaal, and that was "titular".

    Piles of unsupported BS still do not give you a leg to stand on. Even your links have been unreliable in the past, but you have one more opportunity here. Where are the links for your claims?


     
  10. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    This is the problem, Grant. You don't know Somali tribes. Let me teach you the lineage. It goes from Yaquub, Abgaal, Mudulood, Hiraab. Do you get it now? It's like saying there were two dynasties. Darood Kablalax and Ogaden Absame. Do you see how foolish you sound? Yaquub Abgaal lineage goes back to Mudulood Hiraab.
    :drakewtf:

    I knew I had to educate you on Somali lineage since you're clueless about our history. Let me teach you!!!


    I think you don't know how to read since you're misquoting the blogs and putting your words into it.

    There were clans in Hiraab Imamate that had different roles but Imamship was only reserved to Yaquub Abgaal and it was one dynasty that governed Hiraab Imamate. Yes, power was distributed to each clans but that doesn't mean there were more than one dynasty.
    :snoop:

    Let me re-quote Wikipedia.

    The alliance involved the army leaders and advisors of the Habar Gidir and Duduble, a Fiqhi/Qadi of Sheekhaal , and the Imam was reserved for the Mudulood branch who is believed to have been the first born. Once established, the Imamate ruled the territories from the Shabeelle valley, the Benaadir provinces, the Mareeg areas all the way to the arid lands of Mudug, whilst the ancient port of Hobyo emerged as the commercial capital.

    Ruler: Founder of the Hiraab Imamate and first Imam, the eponymous ancestor of the Yacquubi dynasty.

    The first Imaam of Hiraab was Imaam Yacquub Ciqwaaq Maxamed Owbakar Gaabane Maxamed Caroone Muuse Isxaaq Harti Abgaal Cusmaan Darandoole Mudulood Hiraab

    Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiraab_Imamate


    What you lined. Yes, they did start a new line since Imaam Maxamuud was overthrown by his brother Imaam Maxamed who was hungry for power and his descendants started ruling Hiraab Imamate.

    Blogs are not reliable, I think anyone with a sound of intellect knows this but they do not support your claims either except for the Yemeni crap.

    I will debunk that Yemeni claim since it was Moorshe, an Ajuran sub-clan that ruled Mogadishu before they were displaced by Abgaal and inhabited the key quarter of Mogadishu later on. It was maybe them they intermarried with. I will show you from an authentic source, not just some random blog you have published which mostly does not support your claim.
    :hemad:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Link of the book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3SapTk5iGDkC&pg=PA253&dq=Ajuran+mogadishu&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_gu-Pr6HmAhWHUcAKHbtXBvgQ6AEIMTAB#v=onepage&q=Ajuran mogadishu&f=false
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
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  11. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    Abgaal isn't even all of Mudulood, and certainly not all of Hiraab.

    Your "Cities" link is absurd. Dumper and Stanley have no clue. Stanley wrote the article for Mog and 36 other cities, apparently reading a lot of falsified Wiki in the process. The Muzzaffar, who had been in alliance with the Ajuraan for trade purposes, were killed or driven out of Mog by the Yaquub Abgaal. The last Imaam of Ajuraan was killed by the Hiraab at Ceel Cawl shortly thereafter, ie about 1625. ( See Cassanelli, p. 93 or the Hawiyya oral traditions.) The Ajuraan had facilitated the interior portion of Shabelli trade, but had no control over the exterior trade, which had been in the hands of the Yemeni families. Certainly no actual Ajuraan ally would have been permitted in Mog after the Abgaal takeover.

    You make much too big a deal out of the Moorshe, Gunther Schlee, who writes a lot about the Ajuraan, doesn't have Moorshe in his index. Same with Mukhtar, Besteman, I.M. Lewis, James de Vere Alllen,, Cassanelli and Scott Reese. Sidney Welch not only doesn't list the Moorshe, but does not recognize the Ajuraan as having anything to do with Mog, or the Ottomans, or the Portuguese; and he is working from the Spanish and Portuguese archives as well as Dr Hirsi's search of the pertinent Egyptian, Ottoman and other Middle Eastern materials. Such records don't exist.

    Maxamuud was clearly NOT overthrown by Maxamed since his line follows directly for 6 generations before hitting a possible hiatus at the grandson of Imaam Caamir and another at the cousin/nephew of Imaam Maxamed Yuusuf Cali. See above.

    Both Dumper and Stanley and the falsified Somali pages on Wikipedia are clearly too corrupt to serve as sources. These are the same unreliable links you posted before. You're going to have to do better. Stick with actual historians, not encyclopedists searching through secondary and tertiary material, or that subject to daily change, like Wiki.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
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  12. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    Sorry, Michael Dumper and Bruce E. Stanley are historians with PhD. You can discredit them all you want but what they brought in is facts. What you brought in are blogs which have no credibility. Big difference.

    I've also given you other sources backed up by historians with Arab, Indian, Turkish and European documents that prove Mogadishu was a province of Ajuran and you still refuse them. Sorry pal, I choose them over your falsified blogs and I think anyone would. What you say is unheard off, remember that.

    As for Hiraab Imamate. There was one dynasty called Yaquub Abgaal that governed the Imamate and they were centred in Shangaani, Mogadishu thus making it the political base/capital. Every Hawiye will tell you this. I can't believe we're debating over facts.

    There was a power dispute between the brothers but only one of them won the throne and his decedents continued the monarchy.

    I'm done correcting you. Take your nonsensical made up garbage somewhere else because it does not belong to the history section.
     
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  13. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    Good Lord! You "correct" Gunther Schlee, M. H. Mukhtar, C. Besteman, I.M. Lewis, James de Vere Alllen,,Lee Cassanelli, Scott Reese, Sidney Welch, Virginia Luling and The Hawiyya Oral Traditions?That will be the day.

    :drakelaugh::russ::ooh::chrisfreshhah::comeon::holeup::meleshame::williamswtf::snoop:

    Certainly glad that's over.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
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  14. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    There were two dynasties through 1871, about the time the Omanis built the Garessa and took over direct control of the port. Ahmed is the son of Cumar Imaam Maxamuud, conqueror of the Muzzaffar. Maxamuud Imaam Maxamed Imaam Cumar continues the main Hiraab line, which still exists.

    Home Page Dynasties Forum Search People
    Imamate of Shingani
    A successor kingdom to the Imamate of Hirab

    1 Imam Ahmed Imam Omar Imam Mahamud
    2 Imam Mahamed Imam Ahmed Imam Omar
    3 Imam Ahmed Imam Mahamed Imam Ahmed
    4 Imam Mahamud Imam Ahmed Imam Mahamed
    5 Imam Ali Imam Mahamud Imam Ahmed
    6 Imam Osman Imam Ali Imam Mahamud
    7 Imam Mahamed Imam Osman Imam Ali 1842
    8 Imam Ahmed Imam Mahamed Imam Osman 1842 1871


    Also: http://www.abtirsi.com/dynasty.php?dynasty=4

    Imamate of Hirab
    A successor kingdom to the Sultanate of Adal

    1 Imam Yaqub Oqwaq Mahamed
    2 Imam Hasan Imam Yaqub Oqwaq
    3 Imam Mahamed Imam Hasan Imam Yaqub
    4 Imam Mahamud Imam Hasan Imam Yaqub
    5 Imam Dimale Imam Hasan Imam Yaqub
    6 Imam Hilowle Imam Dimale Imam Hasan
    7 Imam Mahamud Imam Hilowle Imam Dimale
    8 Imam Omar Imam Mahamud Imam Hilowle
    9 Imam Mahamed Imam Omar Imam Mahamud
    10 Imam Mahamud Imam Mahamed Imam Omar
    11 Imam Ahmed Imam Mahamud Imam Mahamed
    12 Imam Mahamed Imam Ahmed Imam Mahamud
    13 Imam Mahamud Imam Mahamed Imam Ahmed
    14 Imam Abdirahman Imam Mahamud Imam Mahamed
    15 Imam Amir Imam Abdirahman Imam Mahamud
    16 Imam Omar Ali Imam Amir 1986
    17 Imam Mahamud Imam Omar Ali 1986 2011
    18 Imam Mahamed Yusuf Ali 2011
    Successor Kingdoms
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019
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  15. Som

    Som

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    By that time(15th century) all muslims were called moors.
    Portuguese sources described somalis as dark skinned moors to distinguish them from arabs.
    Even the muslim asian looking people of Philippines are still called moro because the Spanish colonisers called them moors since they were muslim
     
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  16. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    Your link says "Imamate of Hiraab successor of Adal Sultanate". When it actually succeeded Ajuran Sultanate. Already wrong on the basics. I can't take you seriously, lol.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
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  17. Grant

    Grant VIP

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    I agree with you. But that's our friend James Dahl. Read the abtirsi and ignore the analysis.
     
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  18. Factz

    Factz VIP

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    Sorry, a blog is not authentic. I've told you this many times before. James Dahl is another Somalispot member who created a blog which is less credible than a Wikipedia.

    The minute it got the basic history wrong. The whole thing should not be taken seriously.
     
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