T-M184 Discussion

Apollo

Apollo

VIP
Alexis said:
Do you think our TMRCA could get any older if other Somalis with T are tested ? Like that one Hawiye from DJ
Click to expand...

I think Hawiyes with T may be of Mudug Dir descent.

Likely there are some rare Somalis out there that could push the TMRCA up, but I don't know who they are as it is unknown for the time being, but they probably exist. Maximum Somali T TMRCA is likely 1,900-2,100 YBP.
 
Arabsiyawi

Arabsiyawi

HA Activist.
Apollo said:
We need to test a Rendille with T on yfull for that to be confirmed.
Click to expand...
The arrival of T being pre-Islamic, I would not be surprised to see few Rendilles turning out to be T-BY181210 as the major difference between us is religious. They’re our closest relatives. This wouldn’t be of any significance.

Every single piece of info we gathered so far lead us to that now very-backed theory we made.

T-Y16897 is NOT Cushitic to me
 
Apollo

Apollo

VIP
Alexis said:
The arrival of T being pre-Islamic, I would not be surprised to see few Rendilles turning out to be T-BY181210 as the major difference between us is religious. It wouldn’t be of any significance.

Every single piece of info we gathered so far lead us to that now very-backed theory we made.

T-Y16897 is NOT Cushitic to me
Click to expand...

Hypothetically speaking what if we tested various Kenyan groups with T carriers and we find ones who push up the TMRCA to like 3,000 YBP.

How would that affect your hypothesis?

I'd say there is a 30-40% chance of that happening.
 
EDsomali

EDsomali

Apollo said:
We need to test a Rendille with T on yfull for that to be confirmed.
Click to expand...

I think the T in South Cushites is actually from Nilotic migration from Sudan that the 2019 paper hinted. This group carried Levant Chalcolithic ancestry and were responsible for the T in Southern Cushities and Rendile speakers at the turn of the millennium just before the Bantu migrations into Kenya and Tanzania

.
upload_2020-1-16_23-41-56.png


You can see the effect of this through Levant Chalcolithic ancestry being favoured in these populations. T was extremely common in the Levant Neolithic and Chalcolithic periods.
 
Arabsiyawi

Arabsiyawi

HA Activist.
Apollo said:
What if we tested various Kenyan groups with T carriers and we find ones who push up the TMRCA to like 3,000 YBP.

How would that affect your hypothesis?

I'd say there is a 40% chance of that happening.
Click to expand...


We have to work with what we actually have:

- Other T bearers in the Horn have completely different clades. Clades that are much older than T-Y16897
-Same for the Lembas.
-Our closest relatives Y-DNA wise are some arabian clans
-High Quality Y-DNA studies have been done all over Africa and the only noticeable T bearers we know in Eastern Africa are the Iraqw people. Given there South Cushitic ancestry, I’m 99% sure they’ll share the same clades as Ethio T-bearers.
 
Apollo

Apollo

VIP
Alexis said:
We have to work with what we actually have:

- Other T bearers in the Horn have completely different clades. Clades that are much older than T-Y16897
-Same for the Lembas.
-Our closest relatives Y-DNA wise are some arabian clans
-High Quality Y-DNA studies have been done all over Africa and the only noticeable T bearers we know in Eastern Africa are the Iraqw people. Given there South Cushitic ancestry, I’m 99% sure they’ll share the same clades as Ethio T-bearers.
Click to expand...

There is a sampling bias going on you have to keep in mind.

People from North or East Africa are relatively poor and are unlikely to take these expensive tests. Only a handful of diaspora people do it and the chance of a non-Somali East African T carrier uploading himself on yfull will be very slim. Especially from non-patrilineal cultures like those in Ethiopia or Kenya. A few Sudanese guys from a specific tribe uploaded it seems, but it looks like they were testing their clan (their T TMRCA is only 500 years).

The only mass upload of Africans on yfull was a study that only focused on A/B/E and R-V88 and ignored J and T.

Data is so limited so we have to be careful with making bold claims.
 
Arabsiyawi

Arabsiyawi

HA Activist.
Apollo said:
There is a sampling bias going on you have to keep in mind.

People from North or East Africa are relatively poor and are unlikely to take these expensive tests. Only a handful of diaspora people do it and the chance of a non-Somali East African T carrier uploading himself on yfull will be very slim. Especially from non-patrilineal cultures like those in Ethiopia or Kenya. A few Sudanese guys from a specific tribe uploaded it seems, but it looks like they were testing their clan (their T TMRCA is only 500 years).

The only mass upload of Africans on yfull was a study that only focused on A/B/E and R-V88 and ignored J and T.

Data is so limited so we have to be careful with making bold claims.
Click to expand...

ahhhh man sorry but I don’t believe the sampling bias is THAT real. So far for Somalis and other African populations with bigger diasporas, the studies on them and the gathered results of private dna companies are quite consistent.

I know we should be careful, but unnecessary carefulness will always prevent us from discovering such things that are sooo interesting.
 
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Prince Abubu

Prince Abubu

Alexis said:
The arrival of T being pre-Islamic, I would not be surprised to see few Rendilles turning out to be T-BY181210 as the major difference between us is religious. They’re our closest relatives. This wouldn’t be of any significance.

Every single piece of info we gathered so far lead us to that now very-backed theory we made.

T-Y16897 is NOT Cushitic to me
Click to expand...

@Alexis @EDsomali

If that is the case then you also have to answer:

1) Why only T-M184 migrated from South Arabia, by itself? Doesn't that seem peculiar?
Especially, since T-M184 is very rare in Arabia to begin with.

2) Why it isn't reflected in our Autosomal dna? Somali T-haplogroup carriers are autosomally identical with some minor differences, to other Somali DNA.
 
EDsomali

EDsomali

Prince Abubu said:
@Alexis @EDsomali

If that is the case then you also have to answer:

1) Why only T-M184 migrated from South Arabia, by itself? Doesn't that seem peculiar?
Especially, since T-M184 is very rare in Arabia to begin with.

2) Why it isn't reflected in our Autosomal dna? Somali T-haplogroup carriers are autosomally identical with some minor differences, to other Somali DNA.
Click to expand...


1) T wasn't the only Subclade, J1-P56 and J1-P58 also came from Arabia from the same time I imagine likewise EV-16 may have come from Arabia as well. But because of Somalis tribal system, T males just got lucky and became landheer and probably absorbed other tribes and took over vital grazing land and thus the other haplogroups died out/reduced in number. A similar phenomenon happened 3100 years ago and Somalis EV-32 subclade.

2) Founder effects can happen without leaving any autosomal impact like West Africa and R1B.
 
Arabsiyawi

Arabsiyawi

HA Activist.
Prince Abubu said:
@Alexis @EDsomali

If that is the case then you also have to answer:

1) Why only T-M184 migrated from South Arabia, by itself? Doesn't that seem peculiar?
Especially, since T-M184 is very rare in Arabia to begin with.

2) Why it isn't reflected in our Autosomal dna? Somali T-haplogroup carriers are autosomally identical with some minor differences, to other Somali DNA.
Click to expand...

Perhaps a single introduction from a very small group ? The very low diversity says it all about how it came on to us I think.

Autosomally we all show some more recent admixtures than the actual mix between proto nilotes and ANA. But small amount. And if we didn’t then it wouldn’t mean anything either as Y-DNA and a-DNA are two completely different things.
 
Prince Abubu

Prince Abubu

Alexis said:
We have to work with what we actually have:

- Other T bearers in the Horn have completely different clades. Clades that are much older than T-Y16897
-Same for the Lembas.
-Our closest relatives Y-DNA wise are some arabian clans
-High Quality Y-DNA studies have been done all over Africa and the only noticeable T bearers we know in Eastern Africa are the Iraqw people. Given there South Cushitic ancestry, I’m 99% sure they’ll share the same clades as Ethio T-bearers.
Click to expand...

Isn't that because there's an overrepresented amount of Arabs on DNA/genealogy testing sites? Saudis/UAE and other Gulf Arabs take the test far more than African tribes with no access to the internet.
 
Arabsiyawi

Arabsiyawi

HA Activist.
Prince Abubu said:
Isn't that because there's an overrepresented amount of Arabs on DNA/genealogy testing sites? Saudis/UAE and other Gulf Arabs take the test far more than African tribes with no access to the internet.
Click to expand...

High resolution studies of Y-DNA on Africans have been around on the internet for some good time right now. As I said, we know what peoples in Africa have noticeable T-M70 proportions, a few, and none of them are T-Y16897. Even our closest relatives, with whom we share many lineages don’t.

The only doubt that persists would be about the Iraqw people. And I’m 99% sure that they’ll share clades with northern Ethiopians.

Arabs are definitely “over represented” compared to others in YFull. And it’s fortunate to us lol now we know more about T-
 
Prince Abubu

Prince Abubu

EDsomali said:
1) T wasn't the only Subclade, J1-P56 and J1-P58 also came from Arabia from the same time I imagine likewise EV-16 may have come from Arabia as well. But because of Somalis tribal system, T males just got lucky and became landheer and probably absorbed other tribes and took over vital grazing land and thus the other haplogroups died out/reduced in number. A similar phenomenon happened 3100 years ago and Somalis EV-32 subclade.

2) Founder effects can happen without leaving any autosomal impact like West Africa and R1B.
Click to expand...

@EDsomali @Alexis

So is this Y16897 and its subclade Y44591, from the eastern Mediterranean, South Arabia or North Arabia, you think?
 
Arabsiyawi

Arabsiyawi

HA Activist.
Prince Abubu said:
@EDsomali @Alexis

So is this Y16897 and its subclade Y44591, from the eastern Mediterranean, South Arabia or North Arabia, you think?
Click to expand...

I would personally say the Y16897 mutation probably happened up north in S/Western Asia rather that Yemen or Eastern Arabia? It is quite old, and we share it with Europeans as well, so a neolithic dispersal from the Levant/Anatolia would be my first guess.
As to Y44591, I'd say Arabia.
 
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