Prophet - "The Hour will not be Established, but Europeans will be Majority"

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Amr ibn Al-As reported: The Quraish importer said to him that he heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, say, “The Hour will be established and the Romans will be a majority of the people.” Amr said, “Be careful what you say.” The man said, “I have said what I heard from the Messenger of Allah.” Amr said, “If the Prophet said that, indeed, there are four qualities in them: they are the most judicious of people during a tribulation, they are the quickest to recover after a calamity, they are the quickest to return to battle after a retreat, and they behave well with the poor and weak. Their fifth quality is good and beautiful: they are best at preventing the oppression of their kings.”

Source: Sahih Muslim 2898

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Imam Muslim

قَالَ الْمُسْتَوْرِدُ الْقُرَشِيُّ عِنْدَ عَمْرِو بْنِ الْعَاصِ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ وَالرُّومُ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ فَقَالَ لَهُ عَمْرٌو أَبْصِرْ مَا تَقُولُ قَالَ أَقُولُ مَا سَمِعْتُ مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ لَئِنْ قُلْتَ ذَلِكَ إِنَّ فِيهِمْ لَخِصَالًا أَرْبَعًا إِنَّهُمْ لَأَحْلَمُ النَّاسِ عِنْدَ فِتْنَةٍ وَأَسْرَعُهُمْ إِفَاقَةً بَعْدَ مُصِيبَةٍ وَأَوْشَكُهُمْ كَرَّةً بَعْدَ فَرَّةٍ وَخَيْرُهُمْ لِمِسْكِينٍ وَيَتِيمٍ وَضَعِيفٍ وَخَامِسَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ جَمِيلَةٌ وَأَمْنَعُهُمْ مِنْ ظُلْمِ الْمُلُوكِ

2898 صحيح مسلم كِتَاب الْفِتَنِ وَأَشْرَاطِ السَّاعَةِ بَاب تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ وَالرُّومُ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ

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Reflections

Fascinating hadith showing how spot on the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) was, the 'Romans' is a term still used by even present day Bedouin Arabs to refer to people of European descent, to be more specific European 'whites'.

The Europeans are a minority currently, at roughly 1.3 billion and that number is dwindling fast. For them to become a majority a cataclysmic event will need to happen that wipes out much of the others.

This tells me they will win the coming nuclear war were much of the rest of humanity would perish, this is one plausible explanation, it also coincides with the 'smoke' as the one of the 10 major signs (the Mushroom clouds blocking the sun)
OR
If that is not the case that wind described in the hadith that will take every believing soul and that which has any good in it, just before the hour is established on the worst of the worst, and that could also make the Europeans a majority.


Which of these do you guys think is more likely and what is you guys take on the hadith, @Layth @The Ash'ari @hodon @Armadillo @Sakandari @jugjugwacwac @Unstable @XamarCade @Rorschach @Prince of Lasanod @DeathWish @Canuck
 
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DeathWish

Hotep and Hebrew Israelite
Amr ibn Al-As reported: The Quraish importer said to him that he heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, say, “The Hour will be established and the Romans will be a majority of the people.” Amr said, “Be careful what you say.” The man said, “I have said what I heard from the Messenger of Allah.” Amr said, “If the Prophet said that, indeed, there are four qualities in them: they are the most judicious of people during a tribulation, they are the quickest to recover after a calamity, they are the quickest to return to battle after a retreat, and they behave well with the poor and weak. Their fifth quality is good and beautiful: they are best at preventing the oppression of their kings.”

Source: Sahih Muslim 2898

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Imam Muslim

I believe the next war might happen when the Euphrates river dries up and will reveal a mountain of gold. I heard that it will dry up in the next 20 or so years.
I believe that Turkey will be taken from the Muslims soon because it has to happen before the M@hd! comes.
 
I mean your theories are definitely interesting, but some scholars have said that we should take these signs as
literal definition rather interpreting it metaphorically, like for example the wind which will take the soul of all living believers your theory was that
it will entail the nuclear war while shyookh say that it will literally be a soft wind which will calmly take the soul of a believer. Another thing which i find interesting is from another hadith which i do not remember the narrator, it says that when dajjal comes he will be riding through out the world with a donkey, some scholars have said that the donkey will actually be an airplane which leads to difference of opinions. Furthermore one other thing that i found interesting is that in another hadith Rasoolulah (saw) said in the future, there will be a donkey with two long ears that will have the ability to fly, some scholars have said that it is indeed the airplane while some scholars have differed and said that there literally will be a donkey with long ears that can fly.
Allah knows best
 
I believe the next war might happen when the Euphrates river dries up and will reveal a mountain of gold. I heard that it will dry up in the next 20 or so years.
I believe that Turkey will be taken from the Muslims soon because it has to happen before the M@hd! comes.

The Russians will win the nuclear war, take all their colonies back and take over Turkey collectively, This is likely after we have fought a third enemy together as the hadith says, that third entities religion is not mentioned, meaning they have none, these are the atheist Western Europeans and their lackeys.

If you look at the black sea, it has now become a Russian lake, Turkey is already surrounded 360, from Crimea Ukraine, in Syria in the South, in Georgia in the East (Russian's will easily take them) & Armenia, all with the exception of Georgia have Russian presence/bases, with Bulgaria/Greece also friendly with Russia & Anti Turkey.


Strategically impossible to really defend, the whole black sea is a Russian lake now, surrounded everywhere with those they enslaved during Ottoman rule
Impossible.PNG



@Coulombs law

You misunderstood my post bro, never said the wind taking the souls is nuclear, I took that literal as you did, re-read again sxb
 
Europeans used to be the majority of people from the late middle ages until near the turn of the century.

I think the hadith was about European colonialism and how they spread their population to the New World.
 
I say: No. 2.


Let us look at the Hadith from a variety of different angles to derive an authoritative commentary on it:

Points to consider:

1) Grading of the Hadith
2) Collectors of the Hadith
3) Commentary on the Hadith from traditional commentators


I'll translate everything from the Arabic. I wanted to go deep. But I dont have much time.


1) Ad Daraqutni argues that the Hadith is Mursal (Cut off). Usually a hadith which is cut off means there is no Companion in the chain of narration.

[Note: A point in Jurisprudence: The majority of the scholars of Jurisprudence consider a narration which is cut off could still technically be used as evidence. Those who hold this opinion are: Abu Hanifah, Malik and Ahmad. Some consider it not permissible to use as evidence, the chief amongst them being Shafi'i. For more, read the commentary of Sahih Muslim by Nawawi.]

Ad Daraqutni argues in his book, called At- Tattabu' (To Follow up) (pg 213):


وأخرج مسلم عن حرملة، عن ابن وهب، عن أبي شريح، عن عبدالكريم بن الحارث، أنَّ المستورد قال: سمعت النَّبِيَّ ص ويقول: «تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ وَالرُّومُ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ». قال: عبدالكريم لم يدرك المستورد، ولا أدرك أبوه الحارث بن يزيد، والحديث مرسل. والله أعلم. اهـ.

"Muslim collected the narration from Harmala, who in turn narrated from Ibn Wahb, who in turn narrated from Abu Shurayh, who in turn narrated from 'Abdul Kareem the son of Harith that Mustawrid al Qurashi said: "I heard the Messenger of Allah (S) say: "The Hour will be established and the Romans (Europeans) will be the majority of the people."
Ad Daraqutni says: "Abdul Karim never met Mustawrid nor did his father Harith meet him either and the Hadith is cut off. And Allah knows best."


[Note: Ad Daraqutni is arguing that Muslim was wrong in the grading of the Hadith. But An Nawawi refutes this. An Nawawi is correct. As I will point out].


An Nawawi refutes Ad Daraqutni in his judgement and grading in his commentary on Sahih Muslim 18/23 and says:

قلت : لا استدراك على مسلم في هذا؛ لأنَّه ذكر الحديث محذوفه في الطريق الأوَّل من رواية علي بن رباح، عن أبيه، عن المستورد متصلاً...وكان صحيحًا

"I say (An Nawawi): There is no ground to stand on for him (Ad Daraqutni), because he (Muslim) narrated the Hadith summarised from the narration of 'Ali the son of Rabah, from his father, from Mustawrid connected... It is Authentic.

[Note: So the Hadith, apparently has more than one chain. One of the chains is not authentic because it is Mursal (Cut off) and another one which is Muttasil connected and is authentic. Ad Daraqutni was attacking the chain which was cut off. An Nawawi defended Muslim from the criticism of Daraqutni by arguing that Muslim only mentioned the Cut off narration due to other reasons, but also knows of the Connected narration.]


So..... the Hadith is Authentic, despite Ad Daraqutni's criticism of its authenticity and refutation of Muslim. Although there has been a lot of debate about the Hadith, Ibn Hajr mentions it in his book At Tahdheeb (The Organiser) and his other book At Taqreeb (To bring close)...


To continue...



2. This Hadith was narrated by many and in different chains. Among them:

* The weak chain: من طريق عبد الكريم بن الحارث، عن المستورد
Abdulkarim the son of Harith who collected it from Mustawrid. Its a cut off.

* The authentic strong chain: طريق الليث بن سعد، عن موسى بن عُلي، عن أبيه، عن المستورد
Al Layth the son of Sa'd who collected it from Musa the son of 'Ali who collected it from his father, who collected it from Mustawrid.


* Imam Ahmad collected the Hadith in his book Al Musnad (The Chained) - 4:230

* Imam Bukhari collected it in his Tarikh (History) - 8/16.



3. Commentaries on the Meaning of this Hadith:


* Some of the classical scholars understood it to have been in their time. Among them Al Qurtubi, the famous Spanish commentator of Qur'an:
He said, in his book Al Mufhim: 7:236:

وهذا الحديث قد صدقه الوجود؛ فإنهم اليوم أكثر من في العالم غير يأجوج ومأجوج؛ إذ قد عمروا من الشام إلى أقصى منقطع أرض الأندلس، وقد اتسع دين النصارى اتساعًا عظيمًا لم تتسعه أمة من الأمم

"This narration has proven to have come to fruition. For indeed, it could be argued that they (the Romans), are the majority in the world, excluding Gog and Magog. They populate the Levant all upto Spain. And Christianity has spread greatly unlike any other."

[Note: It seems to me Reer Sspot that Qurtubi has correlated Rome along with Christianity. So, perhaps, his understanding of the Narration could be figurative in a way. He clearly made an exception for Gog and Magog.]

Swiftly moving on...

* My favourite explanation from one of my favourite classical scholars, Al Munawi, in his book Faydh ul Qadir (3:256):

For those in Sspot who love linguistics and grammar. The key is in the language!

What do I mean? Lets see!

Al Munawi narrates this hadith with the wording:

والروم أكثر الناس
"Whilst the Romans are the Majority"

[Note: What does the letter 'w' signify? The letter و is described as Present tense (Haal). What is the signifcance of this? Continue reading.]

There is a Narration collected by Al Bukhari in his Collection of Authentic Narrations, a hadith which I will paraphrase:

أنه لا يبقى مسلم وقت قيام الساعة
No Muslim will be alive at commencement of the Hour,

So who will be the majority inhabitants at that time? People of European descent, in other words. The Romans. So yes, it is at the the commencement of the Hour. That seems to be the most reasonable explanation of the Narration.


Sorry guys, there was much more I wanted to quote from more scholars. But this will suffice.
 
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Amr ibn Al-As reported: The Quraish importer said to him that he heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, say, “The Hour will be established and the Romans will be a majority of the people.” Amr said, “Be careful what you say.” The man said, “I have said what I heard from the Messenger of Allah.” Amr said, “If the Prophet said that, indeed, there are four qualities in them: they are the most judicious of people during a tribulation, they are the quickest to recover after a calamity, they are the quickest to return to battle after a retreat, and they behave well with the poor and weak. Their fifth quality is good and beautiful: they are best at preventing the oppression of their kings.”

Source: Sahih Muslim 2898

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Imam Muslim

قَالَ الْمُسْتَوْرِدُ الْقُرَشِيُّ عِنْدَ عَمْرِو بْنِ الْعَاصِ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَقُولُ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ وَالرُّومُ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ فَقَالَ لَهُ عَمْرٌو أَبْصِرْ مَا تَقُولُ قَالَ أَقُولُ مَا سَمِعْتُ مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ لَئِنْ قُلْتَ ذَلِكَ إِنَّ فِيهِمْ لَخِصَالًا أَرْبَعًا إِنَّهُمْ لَأَحْلَمُ النَّاسِ عِنْدَ فِتْنَةٍ وَأَسْرَعُهُمْ إِفَاقَةً بَعْدَ مُصِيبَةٍ وَأَوْشَكُهُمْ كَرَّةً بَعْدَ فَرَّةٍ وَخَيْرُهُمْ لِمِسْكِينٍ وَيَتِيمٍ وَضَعِيفٍ وَخَامِسَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ جَمِيلَةٌ وَأَمْنَعُهُمْ مِنْ ظُلْمِ الْمُلُوكِ

2898 صحيح مسلم كِتَاب الْفِتَنِ وَأَشْرَاطِ السَّاعَةِ بَاب تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ وَالرُّومُ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reflections

Fascinating hadith showing how spot on the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) was, the 'Romans' is a term still used by even present day Bedouin Arabs to refer to people of European descent, to be more specific European 'whites'.

The Europeans are a minority currently, at roughly 1.3 billion and that number is dwindling fast. For them to become a majority a cataclysmic event will need to happen that wipes out much of the others.

This tells me they will win the coming nuclear war were much of the rest of humanity would perish, this is one plausible explanation, it also coincides with the 'smoke' as the one of the 10 major signs (the Mushroom clouds blocking the sun)
OR
If that is not the case that wind described in the hadith that will take every believing soul and that which has any good in it, just before the hour is established on the worst of the worst, and that could also make the Europeans a majority.


Which of these do you guys think is more likely and what is you guys take on the hadith, @Layth @The Ash'ari @hodon @Armadillo @Sakandari @jugjugwacwac @Unstable @XamarCade @Rorschach @Prince of Lasanod @DeathWish @Canuck
Do you think nuclear war is gonna take before or after the dajjal
 
@The Ash'ari

Beautiful break down brother, I enjoyed reading it, I only read tafseer of the Quran through the eyes of the grammarians and linguists, they pick up the nuisances and subtle deep gems, Alusi is my favourite, followed by Razi.

You basically proved linguistically that it's option 2 which I highlighted in my post, I didn't even consider looking at the hadiths linguistically. Since option 2 is correct linguistically, the Europhiles are the worst of people, those that will be fornicating openly in the streets.

But how did the Sahabi 'Amr' get it so wrong? breaking down their virtues? it's one of the reasons why I leaned more towards the nuclear scenario along with the 10 major signs one of them being 'smoke' which I am not convinced is at the end as most scholars say, what's your take on the 'smoke' ? it still doesn't discount the nukes.

@XamarCade

Absolutely, it will be after reconquering Istanbul, I don't see how such a regional war will not involve nukes and the two super powers clashing, they are already at each other throats right now, along with China, it's only a matter of time when it escalates into cross fire.
 
@The Ash'ari

Beautiful break down brother, I enjoyed reading it, I only read tafseer of the Quran through the eyes of the grammarians and linguists, they pick up the nuisances and subtle deep gems, Alusi is my favourite, followed by Razi.

You basically proved linguistically that it's option 2 which I highlighted in my post, I didn't even consider looking at the hadiths linguistically. Since option 2 is correct linguistically, the Europhiles are the worst of people, those that will be fornicating openly in the streets.

But how did the Sahabi 'Amr' get it so wrong? breaking down their virtues? it's one of the reasons why I leaned more towards the nuclear scenario along with the 10 major signs one of them being 'smoke' which I am not convinced is at the end as most scholars say, what's your take on the 'smoke' ? it still doesn't discount the nukes.

@XamarCade

Absolutely, it will be after reconquering Istanbul, I don't see how such a regional war will not involve nukes and the two super powers clashing, they are already at each other throats right now, along with China, it's only a matter of time when it escalates into cross fire.


In regards to the virtues mentioned by 'Amr ibn al 'As, there are a few explanations, I'll give the best one:

Al Qurtubi says in his book 'Al Mufhim'

ووصف عبد الله بن عمرو لهم بما وصفهم به من تلك الأوصاف الجميلة إنما كانت غالبة على الروم الذين أردك هو زمانهم، وأما ما في الوجود منهم اليوم، فهم أنجس الخليقة، وأركسهم، وهم موصوفون بنقيض تلك الأوصاف. انتهى


"The beautiful description given by 'Abd Allah the son of 'Amr is primarily concerning those amongst them whom he encountered in his day. As for those we see today, they are of extreme reprehensible nature and can be described as opposite of the descriptions we find in the Narration."

:lol:
 
@Inquisitive_

You might be interested in reading Imran Hosein's book "An Islamic View of Gog and Magog in the Modern Age". I suspect that you may have already heard of it or read it given your theories.

Don't ask me about it too much, I read it a long time ago and cannot remember which people exactly he portrayed as the Gog and Magog and who he his predictions of future events. At the time I was quite shocked and believed them to be very accurate. You should have a look at it.


EDIT: PDF link below

http://imranhosein.org/media/books/ivgmmw.pdf
 

TekNiKo

“I am an empathic and emotionally-aware person.
VIP
Very interrsting thread, one also has too closely watch events in Yemen and Syria, Afghanistan maybe @The Ash'ari can find the specific hadiths regarding crawling on ice and the 12 000 mujahedeen from Yemen who will assist the Mehdi.

Also another hadith which mentions a power struggle in Hijaz (Saudi)? Which leads to emergence of the great Mehdi??
 
People are growing human tissue in fruits and you're talking about prophecies.

The knowledge gap between the Muslim world and the West is really massive!
 
People are growing human tissue in fruits and you're talking about prophecies.

The knowledge gap between the Muslim world and the West is really massive!

The knowledge came from the East. According to the Europeans themselves.

You can't judge Western superiority based on a few decades of technological advances. Human history is longer than a few decades. The shift of power constantly is revolving. Rome, Greece, Persia, the Islamic Empires all had it.
Knowledge came from the East and it will return there. The West is in decline.

Truth/Reality isn't judged based on superficial judgements related to 'technology'. That's a criteria that you made up for yourself or extracted sub consciously from your surroundings. If, the most advanced technologally advanced countries happened to be religious, would that then, mean it would be true? According to your superficial judgement, yes.

:lol:
 
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They were numerous in the past - it's how why they populated whole continents. They're on the decline now though - their birth rates in Western-Europe is atrocious. Their civilisation is bursting at the seams; look at America and across Europe - there's a huge divide.

The power will return to Asia. The Europeans don't have a monopoly on gun powder or the steam engine anymore.

On the matter of Islamic eschatology, I've been reading that Dajjal was been warned about since the beginning of time. Can't we then assume that there are opposing ancient cults who, knowingly or unknowingly, worship and/or celebrate his release?

There's been a lot of focus on space and aliens for the past century. From a young age children are immersed in science-fiction and space travel. The possibility of Alien contact is not seen as conspiratorial or cooky as it was in the past, but is seen as a serious and desired possibility. The people went from laughing at tin foil characters to expecting Alien contact in a few decades.

We're primed. If Aliens were to be announced tomorrow, we'd eat it up. In my personal opinion, those who plan to welcome Dajjal might disguise it in the form of contact with an ancient and all-powerful god-like being who's been looking over human since inception. This falsehood would easily convert all of the Westeners. It's a possibility they're familiar with in comics/films/TV/Cartoons.
 
They were numerous in the past - it's how why they populated whole continents. They're on the decline now though - their birth rates in Western-Europe is atrocious. Their civilisation is bursting at the seams; look at America and across Europe - there's a huge divide.

The power will return to Asia. The Europeans don't have a monopoly on gun powder or the steam engine anymore.

On the matter of Islamic eschatology, I've been reading that Dajjal was been warned about since the beginning of time. Can't we then assume that there are opposing ancient cults who, knowingly or unknowingly, worship and/or celebrate his release?

There's been a lot of focus on space and aliens for the past century. From a young age children are immersed in science-fiction and space travel. The possibility of Alien contact is not seen as conspiratorial or cooky as it was in the past, but is seen as a serious and desired possibility. The people went from laughing at tin foil characters to expecting Alien contact in a few decades.

We're primed. If Aliens were to be announced tomorrow, we'd eat it up. In my personal opinion, those who plan to welcome Dajjal might disguise it in the form of contact with an ancient and all-powerful god-like being who's been looking over human since inception. This falsehood would easily convert all of the Westeners. It's a possibility they're familiar with in comics/films/TV/Cartoons.


I dont think its a coincidence that the Jews are waiting for a Messiah. Similarly, the radical Shi'ites who are waiting for their Mahdi. Someone close to me informed me that the characteristics pertaining to the Shi'a Mahdi fits in very well with the Eschatological orthodox Sunni description of the Dajjal.

Aliens are Jinn. There is a chapter in the Qur'an called Jinn. It details this:

وأنا كنا نقعد منها للسمع

{{We used to take platforms to eavesdrop}}

Platforms are the planets.
 
@The Ash'ari

Beautiful break down brother, I enjoyed reading it, I only read tafseer of the Quran through the eyes of the grammarians and linguists, they pick up the nuisances and subtle deep gems, Alusi is my favourite, followed by Razi.

You basically proved linguistically that it's option 2 which I highlighted in my post, I didn't even consider looking at the hadiths linguistically. Since option 2 is correct linguistically, the Europhiles are the worst of people, those that will be fornicating openly in the streets.

But how did the Sahabi 'Amr' get it so wrong? breaking down their virtues? it's one of the reasons why I leaned more towards the nuclear scenario along with the 10 major signs one of them being 'smoke' which I am not convinced is at the end as most scholars say, what's your take on the 'smoke' ? it still doesn't discount the nukes.

The Smoke is a Major Sign. As to its exact nature. We do not know. It could be figurative, it could be a case of realism. We really don't know.
 
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